Senator Orji Uzor Kalu, a prominent Southeast politician and former Abia State governor, spoke candidly on pressing Nigerian issues in a recent interview monitored by The Plenary’s Tekena Amakiri. He delved on topics touching on President Tinubu’s reforms,Nnamdi Kanu’s detention,allegations of Igbo marginalization, Former President Obasanjo’s third term denial, his own political ambitions and other sundery issues.
Q.. Recently, there was a very heated debate between the Speaker of the House and a Federal lawmaker from Abia State who stood up, as a Matter of Privilege, saying that there is need for Nnamdi Kanu to be released for medical checks. Also there are those campaigning outside that the man should be let go. As a South East leader, how best in your own opinion can this situation be handled?
Kalu.. Well, you know this case is before a Court of competent jurisdiction. I am not sure it is a very good thing for me to come out openly and start canvassing my opinion, without knowing the opinion of the Judge. The President is also watching from the judicial angle. Remember all of us are doing backdoor diplomacy as much as we can. Due to the uttermost respect I have for the judiciary, I cannot make Justice Omotosho look like a fool by discussing his case before a television station.The President knows my opinion. We have been talking to him on how best to resolve this issue and I am confident that very soon he will find a way on how best it will be resolved. It is before a Court of competent jurisdiction.
Q.. is the matter a top priority on the table of the President?
Kalu.. I cannot say …
Q.. But you spoke to him?
Kalu.. I have discussed with him many times.
Q.. His reaction?
Kalu.. I cannot tell you what I discussed with the President. That information is private.
Q.. Still, how would you like this to play out?
Kalu.. I would like this matter to be settled amicably, after the judicial pronouncement. It is before the Court. The Attorney General is there. Anybody can approach him through the right processes and give him reasons to discontinue the case. He has that power to discontinue the case and not people shouting on television or in their homes. We should respect Justice Omotosho.This has always been my stance. We must respect the decisions of our Courts.
Q.. So your prayer is that Nnamdi Kanu should be allowed to go home? Would this move allow for permanent peace in the South East?
Kalu.. It will bring everybody equally…em..em..my decision is…I cannot discuss what is before the Court now. Like I said, I have spoken to President Tinubu about my opinion on this. He knows where I stand. Some of the legal people
also know my opinion which I cannot say here because it is before the Court.
Q.. I am not asking to discuss the case, just your personal opinion…
Kalu.. No, no, no. What ever it is, I think there is need to come together and work out something between the Federal government and that family. I still believe this is possible.
Q.. Simon Ekpa. Look at what happened in the Finnish Court and what we are seeing in the S/East before and after his conviction. There seems to be a sense of calm there. What do you make of Ekpa’s situation and how it has been handled?
K.. I cannot discuss such things…
Q.. Why?
Kalu.. I told you that I have discussed this with the higher authorities in Nigeria…
Q.. That was Nnamdi Kanu. We are talking about Simon Ekpa…
Kalu.. I have also discussed this with the authorities.
Q.. You seem to sound a bit careful.Are you concerned that this will affect you politically as such your being careful?
Kalu.. No. Listen to me. You know my position on national issues…em..em.. this case is before…
Q.. Ekpa’s case is not before the Nigerian Court. It has been dealt with by the Finnish government…
Kalu.. Yes. Since his conviction there has been relative peace in the S/East. I am not sure that it is the Nnamdi Kanu’s group that are pushing all these problems. Still, if there is a way we can come together and agree on something…em..em.. where I have mentioned options A,B,C to the authorities and if they agree with what I proffer, then there will be peace very soon.
Q.. Do you still hold the view that the Igbos are marginalized in Nigeria? Remember that was the view you held 14 years ago in an earlier interview. Has anything changed? With the recent happenings in Lagos, the Trade Fair complex building demolitions….
Kalu.. When President Tinubu was the then governor of Lagos and I was the governor of Abia State, we had such long running of misunderstanding, still we were able to settle these matters amicably. There were houses built on canals. I went to Aspanda, I went to Alaba and Oshodi markets on many occasions with the then governor Tinubu. We inspected all these things and we were able to call town planners on how to ameliorate the sufferings of the people. I am sure gov. Sanwo-Olu did not wake up with the intention of suffering the Igbo people. If that is what they are doing then it is not right. They should have found a common ground like, if you have broken the law, this is the penalty. When President Tinubu was governor of Lagos then, we sorted these things out amicably….
Q.. The position of the Lagos government is that they had given notices earlier…
Kalu.. There are lots of questions. I cannot talk much about this since I will be going to Lagos soon. I will make an effort to reach gov. Sanwo-Olu and his authorities. I am going to see these things by myself. The thing is, if the government said they have set aside this place for something and you contravene it, ignore notices… I am just saying, due to the economic situation… Lagos government might be right but because of the economic costs, they could have rescinded their decisions of pulling down the buildings and finding better solutions. Still, when you do what you are not supposed to, then you are wrong…
Q.. In the national scheme of things, does your view on the Igbo Presidency still hold today as we march towards 2027?
Kalu.. Well, I am in a party where we have made the decision of returning President Tinubu for a second term. Even if I felt that it was the turn of the Igbos, those thoughts are no longer visible. I am caged up in a party where I have signed to renominate President Tinubu for a second term. It is no longer visible. The party I belong to has chosen our Presidential candidate…
Q.. Don’t you think it leaves a sour taste in the mouth of the people from your region?
Kalu.. Let me tell you… Yes we need the Presidency but if we already have a President that is fair to all Nigerians, fair to all regions and provides justice and equity to all, nobody will care where that President comes from..
Q.. is President Tinubu fair to your people?
Kalu.. Well, I am not in a position to say now. All I know is that he has given them everything the Constitution demands from a President to his people. When you are in a position of authority there are hits everywhere. The President has been trying to address these issues…
Q.. in your own judgment have the Igbos been fairly treated just yet?
Kalu.. No. There is still a lot to be done. Since after the civil war, the Igbos have been unfairly treated. I have told you this on many occasions. I don’t hide in saying it. The Igbos have not been fairly treated all over Nigeria I want Nigeria to know that they need to reabsorb the Igbos and play by the rules with the us the way it is supposed to be, so that everybody will feel equal and the country will develop. As long as you want to clamp down on the Igbos, the country will find it difficult to develop.
Q.. why do you say the Igbos are being clamped down? In commerce and trade they hold the upper hand, economic wise they hold the upper hand. They are literally in every nook and cranny in the country…
Kalu.. I agree with you on that but em..em..the sagacity of saying oh these Igbos.. such comments are really discouraging. My children came back here and when they went out, they came back discouraged with what people were saying about the Igbos.I said to them, well that is what it is. The Igbos have not committed any offense. I have not committed any offense. I did not know how the civil war started or how it ended. We should forget about that… look at small Rwanda? with all the hatred in that country, you can see the progress they have made. We should leave these tribalistic sentiments, leave our religious and ethnic sentiments behind…
Q.. So after 50 years now, you think the Igbos have not been forgiven?
Kalu.. No they have not been forgiven.
Q.. How can we correct this?
Kalu.. By being fair to everybody. You have been trying to drag me into talking about the Court of Justice Omotosho and I told you no because it is not fair to talk about that case. I am only following the law….
Q.. what do you think will be considered fair for the Igbos, that will make them believe again in the country?
Kalu.. Make them feel that they are still stakeholders in this country. Kudos to President Tinubu who is trying to do this. He has started bringing development to our region. Nobody cared about our roads before his coming. Now we have the Port Harcourt- Aba road as proof of his goodwill. We also have the Enugu express road and the rest…
Q.. Do you think that this issue of marginalization of the Igbos boils down to a lack of trust? is it one of the reasons why an Igbo man has not been a Nigerian President since 1999?
Kalu.. I might think so. Not only 1999..em..em.. you see, this country has grown so large that it will be difficult to break it. People have intermarried, many people have done all kinds of things, people have investments all over. Let me use Enyimba Football Club to give an illustration. when I was governor, the football club was there. We achieved a lot because we used players based on merit and not tribal sentiments. Under my watch we had players from every region and there was no discrimination. That was why we achieved all we did then. That has always been my belief. That is what is in my head. I believe that everyone has a role to play and the Igbos should not be demonized about it ..
Q.. Are the Igbos regarded as a second class citizens in your opinion?
Kalu.. whether they are or not I don’t feel so. It is not written on me…
Q.. And your ambition of becoming the president of this country?
Kalu.. Of course I still have that ambition. I am competent to be the President of Nigeria…
Q.. But not in 2027?
Kalu.. No. It is not. I am supporting President Tinubu…
Q.. So that gives you another 12 year wait, given the political power arrangement between the North and South?
Kalu.. Yes ..
Q.. Don’t you think by then you will be a bit too old for the office?
Kalu.. If I am healthy and God gives me life.. the question is not about age but competence. I need to deliver what is in my brain. It is not when or where but how ready you are…
Q.. Do you think the Igbos should support Peter Obi in pursuit of their aspiration for Presidency?
Kalu.. Let me be honest with you. I am a member of APC, I don’t want to discuss Peter Obi. I have told you this before, I don’t want to discuss him for any reason, not for anything. You can ask me about the leader of my party and I will answer you, whether the question is right or wrong..
Q.. Why do you get uncomfortable each time the name Peter Obi comes up?
Kalu.. I don’t want to discuss him…
Q.. The facts points at Peter Obi as the perceived leader of the South East, politically speaking…
Kalu.. He is not my leader. I am the most important politician from the South East. I have won two states before for PPA. I have ran for President before. My 4.5 million votes are there in 2007 and we achieved a lot with PPA . We had ministers, ambassadors and other political appointments under President Yar’adua. You cannot be telling me … Anybody can run for President but let me tell you… Let’s just discuss issues that concerns me ..
Q.. But Peter Obi seems to be the most popular Igbo man politically..
Kalu.. No. Listen to me … Let us make an arrangement in two weeks. Let Peter Obi be there, put me here…
Q.. For what purpose?
Kalu.. On any issue you want us to discuss…
Q.. Is it because people say Peter Obi will beat your party if he contests again?
Kalu.. let us be serious please…
Q.. So Peter Obi matter is not serious enough?
Kalu.. It is not a serious matter in my chapter and that is the truth.
Q.. You heard the comment made by former President Obasanjo, that there is no one who can attribute the third term bid to him?
Kalu.. With due respect to President Obasanjo, you know what he said in Ghana is naked lie. It is a naked fallacy because many people like David Mark and Ogbeha are still alive. All those people during that period, many of them are still alive. Late Senator Chukwumerije, one day brought 50 million naira which they shared. He asked me, as his governor, if I would take my cut, I told him to take it back…
Q.. They offered you 50 Million?
Kalu.. They offered them. Even the national security advisor, Nuhu Ribadu, would know that Obasanjo was lying. He was at the center of the whole thing. Personally, what was my quarrel with him? I was the one who told the South African President then Thambo Mbeki that Obasanjo was running for third term. I told President Bush alsoo. These two Presidents called him. I was the one who told Nelson Mandela and they sent for him to ask if he was running for third term. I don’t know….should Nigeria really be based on lies from her statesmen?
Q.. Former President Obasanjo said ” I am not a fool. If I wanted third term I would know how to go about it. There is no Nigerian, dead or alive that will say I called him to say I want a third term”
Kalu.. ( laughing ) I am from Cameroon. I am not a Nigerian.
Q.. Did he tell you about his third term bid ambition?
Kalu.. Yes of course. He told me at the Villa…he told me ..
Q.. You visited him at the Villa?
Kalu.. Of course and he told me what he wanted. I said it was not possible. He had already convinced some governors about his ambition. It was only me and very few others that said no.
Q.. Was that where your problem with him started?
Kalu.. Yes. That is where it started because I told him it was not possible. I am a committed Christian and have taken an oath with the Bible that I will do 8 years.No.. Let President Obasanjo not annoy the gods of our land because he wanted a third term…
Q.. Any regrets on that?
Kalu.. Never. No regrets. It was the legitimate thing to do. The beauty of democracy is the time limit. If you are in a democracy and the Constitution says 8 years, anybody that wants to go beyond 8 years, is asking God what can you do? It is not right.
Q.. So he told you? He said he never told anyone alive..
Kalu.. If his late wife was here, she would say it. He told many governors from the North.Let us be fair. If they are courageous enough they should come out and say it. He wanted a third term. Let us not be deceiving ourselves The man wants to rewrite history. He wanted it and we stopped. Why was he quarrelling with gov. Peter Odili? Because he wanted a third term and we stopped him.
Q.. You stopped him because you did not like him or because of the nation?
Kalu.. we stopped him because of the Constitution. Our Constitution is the ultimate arbiter…
Q.. There are some who argue that former President Goodluck Jonathan’s time is not over yet politically. What does his comeback portend for your party?
Kalu.. If I am President Jonathan, I will not think of running for election..
Q.. Why?
Kalu.. First of all it is positionally banned by law. Nobody can do more than 8 years according to our Constitution.So anybody telling him…
Q.. Are you speaking from the point of law or as a politician?
Kalu.. Both.
Q.. As a politician you might be wrong…
Kalu.. Listen to me, I am speaking not as a politician but as an entrepreneur who found himself in politics. If I am Goodluck Jonathan, I will just remain as the statesman that I am. Let me be honest with you, i will tell you the truth, none of these people parody themselves can defeat President Tinubu..
Q.. When you say none, who are these people you are referring to?
Kalu.. Whatever you call them.
Q.. Where is this confidence coming from?
Kalu.. we know ourselves. All of us know ourselves. We eat on the same table. What are they going to offer Nigerians that we are not offering?
Q.. A better deal?
Kalu.. A better deal? When you go for economic reform know that it doesn’t come in one day. We had no economy when President Tinubu came here…
Q.. But the beauty of democracy is that the people have the right, under law to change or retain governments…
Kalu.. I am not saying that the people have no right. Your right is your right..Now what new things are these people going to do? before President Tinubu came in, there was no economy. We were just printing naira notes, recycling, going back and forth. Now we are a big family. The reform is taking shape.when you want to do a reform and the reforms start getting better…. I am an entrepreneur. I can see the light in the tunnel though it is yet to trickle down. Yes the people are still suffering. I can tell you this…
Q.. And you have told your friend Mr President? That the people are suffering?
Kalu.. Yes of course. He knows I tell him the truth. He will do well because in every reform…. where we are today, the Brazilian government went through the same in 2003 and President Lula brought back the economy to where it is supposed to be. They suffered for a couple of years and he brought them back. These are the difficulties. You can see, the dollar was almost 2000 to the naira but today it is 1,400. The fiscal policies are now getting better. We are no longer regulating, the Central Bank is no longer thinking of selling oil but are now focused on fiscal policies..
Q.. And the letter for the request of borrowing came to the floor of the Senate?
Kalu.. Yes.
Q.. How do you think Nigerians would react to this? More borrowing? And you say we are making money? does it make sense?
Kalu.. Listen, borrowing in itself is not bad. It is what you use the money to do that matters. If it is borrowing to do infrastructure, we are better off. If it is borrowing to do rail lines, we are better off. If it is to improve our roads, to improve the lives of Nigerians then we are better off. But borrowing to pay salaries is what I am against.The borrowing today is necessary. Let me tell you….because we are Nigerians we don’t travel much so we are blind to global economic practices. Right now the world economy is in trouble. What do you do? fold your ams? The borrowing is justified because it is meant for Federal government investments in infrastructure. We have not even reached the threshold for borrowing. So for me I don’t see anything wrong at all in borrowing.It is what you do with the money that matters. So we are on course. My greatest pain is that Nigerians down the line are suffering. Still we need to go through these reforms. we are not going to go halfway. This was how SAP started and people said we need to go back. We drew back and did not get the benefits. People should encourage the President. I would love to see all those going for Presidency in 2027 to come on a round table and provide their own experiences and advice to the President. They should come together and work on the economy so that we all can enjoy what God has given to us.
Q.. I am curious though.When you say that the Igbos have not been fairly treated and I know that someone like Godswill Akpabio is from the South South, Tajudeen Abbas is from the Northwest, President Tinubu is South West, Vice President Shettima is North East. Do you think, maybe in 2027, if your party gets back, an Igbo Senate Presidency can be a fair deal?
Kalu.. I am not going to discuss that.
Q.. Do you want to be Senate President?
Kalu.. I am not going to discuss that.
Q. Is that your ambition?
Kalu.. I am not going to discuss that.
Q.. Anything President attached to your name is what you want to be?
Kalu..I am not going to discuss that.
Q.. That is what you have been telling people you want to be..
Kalu..No. Have I told you so? (laughing)
Q.. if you become the Senate President, will that be a fair deal for the Igbos?
Kalu.. I am qualified to be anything…
Q.. Will that be a good one for the Igbos?
Kalu.. What would be fair is to give Igbos the Presidency.
Q.. Including Senate President?
Kalu.. Including anything.
Q.. The Minister for Science, Technology and Innovation recently resigned over allegation of forgery and perjury for some. How did he scale the Senate screening? you were part of the Senate that screened him.
Kalu.. well we are not supposed to be looking at certificates. Our duty is to screen the candidate not the certificate. The Senate did a very good job by screening him. I congratulate him for resigning because if you have anything that is in conflict with what you do, you quietly resign. It is the normal thing to do. So I don’t think it is an issue for discussion.
Q . Don’t you think it is a dent as you’re one of the leaders of the South East in APC? you have lost one person in cabinet..
Kalu.. the President will get a replacement. It is just that I pity him. He is a very good friend of mine. Unfortunately it happened.
Q.. You heard what Atiku Abubakar said about the situation, that it brings disrepute to this cabinet. To find a minister with questionable qualifications…
Kalu.. He is not the first in the world. Even in the United States, there are people whose university degree were in dispute. I don’t want to discuss what another person said.
Q.. Is yours in dispute?
Kalu.. No.
Q. So why do you think this is normal?
Kalu.. I am not saying it is normal. It is not something that she be bothering the nation. What we should be focusing on is dealing with our economic problems.
Q.. But we are a people that is trying to build a reputation…
Kalu.. what the man has done is honorable. it is not supposed to be up for discussion again. The man has found out that whatever he did was wrong…
Q.. Still it is in the realm of perjury?
Kalu.. you cannot do the job of the Inspector General of Police. Allow the Inspector General to decide what his job will be. Why do we like to castigate people over and over on television? allow the people whose duty it is to investigate the matter to do so.
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